Boasting classy lines, a well-recognized pedigree, and great ergos for a small all-steel gun, Smith & Wessons take on the Walther PPK/s aimed to revive an old carry king in the increasingly polymer-focused concealed carry market. The right side of the receiver and the bolt light thinning from cycling. A number of researchers and authors are present on the forums, helping others and seeking information for various research projects. I've got one with (JJ) in a circle , on the flipper, on a Winchester. IP and S'G' mixed. The bolt is marked IP on the right lug which was used by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG (page 36). The sling well is marked RSG which was used bySaginaw SG, Irwin-Pedersen, and Saginaw Gear(page 108 109). The right side of the receiver shows some thinning from cycling. There is no bayonet lug. community. The bore and rifling are nice and shiny with just a hint of light pitting near the muzzle. Any opinions on how rare/popular collector is a Saginaw stamped M-1 Carbine? The barrel has been treated with cold blue. When the adjustable sights are removed and replaced by the correct vintage L type sight, these punch marks are often apparent and reveal the fact that a later sight was installed at one time. Many of the marks have damaged small portions of the surface wood. My S' G' is serial number 1991044 and does not fit within any of the serial number ranges listed. Carbines that have one of these serial numbers may be an Engineering prototype, a "presentation" carbine, or both. Caveat Emptor! We would like to encourage you to share information you may have that will help reconstruct what was actually done versus planned. The 15 round magazine is not available to residents of California or any other state with magazine capacity restrictions. Both were Divisions of General Motors. The rear sight is at the front end of the receiver; it Most of these marks are light or small. A few stock and/or carbine restoration There is insufficient data to determine if every serial number between the lows and highs was duplicated or if it was random. A full parts list with their markings is included in the photographs. We got our hands on one of the original MCXs for some testing. They now sell for $4.50 to $7.00 each. Here is my $50 Saginaw S'G' - IP Carbine. Copyright 2011-2023 All Rights Reserved. http://m1family.com/general-history-rbine-t33.html, http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/serialnumbers.html. The front sight is marked N which was used by Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen (page 56). Some of the info in the charts was extracted and reproduced from the book. The barrel is an Underwood barrel that was supplied to Saginaw SG. It has a high wood stock and the serial number is in the 3.3 mils. Lock, Stock & Barrel Investments had passed inspection. Free shipping for many products! Saginaw = SG; Saginaw (Grand Rapids) = SG Standard Products = S; Irwin-Pedersen = IP; IBM = B; Rock Ola = R; National Postal Meter = N; Quality Hardware = Q; Underwood = U; Therefore, for example, a carbine made by Rock Ola would be The rebuilt rifles are identifiable from the markings left by the companies that rebuilt them. for carbines having damaged or obliterated serial numbers. I have some other shooters so this one has been a safe queen. Box, Paperwork & Accessories:There is no magazine. The technical storage or access is required to create user profiles to send advertising, or to track the user on a website or across several websites for similar marketing purposes. While most major component parts such as receivers, barrels (with a few exceptions), trigger housings, etc. We did not fire this rifle. then allowed to dry. General Motors Steering Gear Division. I do know it is a really nice M1 and I would not part with it. final inspection. CARBINE / CAL. The top of the barrel is marked UNDERWOOD / 3 43 and P. Most websites are poorly To separate the production of each plant the prime symbol () was marked after the SG on the receivers of the Grand Rapids carbines. The LOP measures 13 inches from the front of the trigger to the back of the buttplate. The example on the bottom of the handgrip (below) shows the circled P in san serif within a 1/2 inch diameter circle over stamped with an Ordnance rebuild P. Carbines having been rebuilt more than once will sometimes have Saginaw SG guns were produced from the remnants of the failed Irwin-Pedersen factory in Grand As originally manufactured, many of the parts were stamped with initials of the prime contractor and, in some cases, the subcontractor that actually manufactured the part. The one and only finish approved for use on the wood of the Caliber .30 Carbine was raw linseed oil. There is no bayonet lug. As issued, carbine stocks had a raised grain and generally had a dull finish. rebuilt from spare parts. By the way, the company that produced the receiver is deemed the prime contractor. Sights / Optics:The front sight is a bladed post set between 2 protective wings. Sent the OP some pictures of an all S'G' I had listed here last year, didn't get a single request for pictures from members, and asked two questions but had no reply. The trigger group is marked SG on the right rear which was used by Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen (page 78). With World War 2 M1 sling. Lock, Stock & Barrel Investments This has been added to help people figure out name brand of parts they have. Saginaw or Saginaw'. Winchester made 828,059, followed by Underwood Elliott-Fisher at 545,616, Newer Post , Spotting a Restored or otherwise non-original M1 Carbine. Markings:There is no visible import mark. Questions should be posted in the appropriate forum. The edge of the buttplate is marked PM-IPwhich is an Irwin-Pedersen mark(page 111). The bore is mint. Sapwood is pale yellow-gray to nearly white. Some were sequential but many were not. The inside of the operating slide is marked SG which was used by Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen (page 65). The technical storage or access that is used exclusively for anonymous statistical purposes. When CMP had a bunch of M1 Carbine for sale that were from Spain or Italy I bought one and it is a Saginaw. Ser. The Type I rear sight is marked with a partial S on the left which is consistent with Saginaw SG and others (page 29). IP used some Rockola wood at their start up. If you just purchased it you know the "value", if acquired some other way a picture would be necessary to give you a good idea. Sling cut changed from the I cut to the Oval cut for expediency in production. standard for all type V M2 pot belly stocks by all manufacturers. Saginaw Carbines made in the Grand Rapids, Michigan factory are marked SG . 94 W. Cochran St., Suite B 317XXXX. and is not a very late production Inland or Winchester, one may rest assured that the piece is a post-war rebuild or has been assembled from parts. designated it as a replacement. The sling well is marked IR-IP which was used byIrwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG(page 108 109). Markings:There is no visible import mark. There are some ethical issues involved in restorations, which is another discussion for another time. were available. Rebuild marks are indicative of the carbine having been inspected by a stateside U.S. the store. Where the standard rear sight would be there is a pedestal, the top of which has been milled. Through our YouTube channel, we strive to educate and share the stories behind the artifacts we sell. What are you basing your question on? barrel channel (bottom), Thinner wood along the right side adjacent the slide on the earlier stocks (top) The left side of the receiver (under the wood) has a tooling hole at the rear. As solutions to old problems were learned, some of the same It is in about Very Good Plus overall condition. The top of the barrel is marked UNDERWOOD / 9 43 and P. When did they change for from SG to S'G' markings? departments within Inland over the years of production. The magazine release is not an SG part. Some stock Do you have anything on safeties? Parts wear out, carbines are disassembled for the sale of the parts individually. I've spent the day going over my Inland. That's a beauty! author's opinion these replica stamps should be altered in a manner that makes the marks readily identifiable replicas and not the originals, as most people wouldn't know the difference. This is not to imply thatonlythese parts are important as every component should be closely scrutinized. Saginaw Carbines made in the original Saginaw, Michigan factory are marked S.G. or SG. Is any of this "original" or a product of a couple rebuilds? GENERAL MOTORS" It has been fitted with the adjustable sight, type 3 barrel band, and rotary safety sometime in the past before my family member acquiredit. None of the carbines produced by Irwin-Pedersen (IP) were accepted by Ordnance. If you choose to do so please I just picked up a sear marked "XI". This M1 Carbine has been rebuilt and now uses a mix of Inland and USGI parts. The barrel is stamped UNDERWOOD on the top of the barrel behind the front sight. organized, dont tell you a lot about what youre buying, and leave you on your A plain SG with no other markings is also stamped on the front left of the receiver. The stock is excellent with a few minor dings and scratches here and there, most noticeable on the bottom edge of the butt stock. Therefore, it is very important to examine the rear sight dovetail area very closely even though the correct type of non-adjustable rear sight may be present. Product Information & Specs. during the time the carbines were manufactured. The same caveat basically holds true for the rotary safety. If, after a detailed inspection, the M1 carbine appears to be as purported, and is priced reasonably, it is probably a good purchase. All Rights Reserved. the first M2 stocks. Thank you. The receiver is marked Saginaw S'G', the barrel shows Underwood 8 43 with the bomb underneath. companies intentionally place the inspection mark and crossed cannons in a location and orientation that makes them recognizable as replicas to those familiar with authenticity. to manufacture barrels. The trigger group is a type two pattern with the upright Inland markings on Here is one for you. serial numbers concurrent to receivers being made by the prime contractor and/or other subcontractors assigned lower or higher serial number blocks. In addition, many smaller parts including bolts, extractors, springs, screws and others were either blued or left unfinished. Front sight marked with N. Military Crossed Cannons Cartouche on right mid stock face. Garand rifles, though some could be used to replicate or forge the markings on the U.S. Carbines. Please don't Private Message me for Carbine questions. Serial The receiver is marked SG under the wood and uses a wide locking tang. Overall, the gun is in nice condition. Read about the Saginaw (S.G.) carbines here: Serial number blocks assigned by the government. Most were of the flat top variety although the rounded bolts came into use by a few makers before production ceased. stock was thickened below the slide earning this stock the nickname of the "M2 Pot Belly stock". The varnish is a little thin around the sling cutout. Many online gun sales actually take away from your local of 0.3. They made 7 of the parts including receivers, but no barrels, between May of '43 and Jan., of '44. You sir have seemed to have done a lot of research on the history of each manufacture. It has a barrel stamp of 10-43, but also has the stamp of Blue Sky/ Arlington, VA. Everything appears to be original and shows very little wear. Such markings can be sanded off by someone wishing to remove such evidence so any sanded areas make the stock suspect. This change was not implemented in conjunction with the longer barrel channel A total of over 6.1 million M1 carbines of various models were manufactured, making it the most produced small arm for the American military during World War II (compared with This Inland M1 Carbine was made back in 1944. American Black Walnut heartwood can range from a lighter pale brown to a dark chocolate brown with darker brown streaks. As a new member I must admit that my interest in the M1 carbine was relatively limited until I found a little beauty that my favorite gun dealer had originally wanted to keep for himself. The serial number would make it an early one too. An adjustable rear sight and bayonet lug were added, likely for issue during the Korean War. It has a high wood stock and the serial number is in the 3.3 mils. I'm sure it's not all original. Also, any indention in the wood at the tip of the stock covered by the barrel band should be examined. 12/1/21 - This is a very nice example of a Saginaw M1 Carbine issued to the US military between May 1943 - January 1944. Therefore, if any other carbine has this type of barrel band, it is not all original. If inventory ran out it could shut down production. Saginaw SG took over the Irwin-Pedersen facility in April of 1943 and produced M1 Carbines using Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG parts. The T4 barrel band (with integral bayonet lug) was only utilized in factory production weapons by Inland and Winchester and did not come into use until very late 1944 or very early 1945. The serial numbers allocated to these carbines were as follows. service to the online gun buying experience that is unheard of. Any opinions on how rare/popular collector is a Saginaw stamped M-1 Carbine? The receiver, bolt, and trigger group have been refinished. The markings on the Saginaw Steering Gear in nearby Saginaw, MI was already engaged in the preparation for The top of the barrel is marked INLAND MFG. Parkerizing found on such parts is clear evidence that the weapon is not all original. That S/N is a Saginaw Grand Rapids number. Winchester continued this practice with their type IV M2 stocks and it became the authorization to sent an unknown quantity of receivers to Grand Rapids. Caliber .30 Carbine Models M1, M1A1 and M2 (1) leftover carbines offered to Ordnance after a company name change and completion of the NPM contract (2) Toolroom Models: Pre It is possible you have an S'G' barrel that was mated to a Stan Prod. Thicker wood along the right side adjacent the slide (bottom). No specific manufacture dates are listed due to a number of reasons explained on pages 24 to 26 of Scott Duffs book, The M1 Carbine Owners Guide. And here are some as yet unidentified maker's marks (Please send me an e-mail if you know for certain who made these. Among the most sought after U.S. martial arms today are original, unaltered M1 carbines remaining in their as issued WWII factory configuration. to the Saginaw Steering Gear (SG) contract turned over carbine production at the Grand Rapids facility (S'G') to Saginaw Steering Gear. Also, have bandoliers & stripper clips & sling. The barrel flat is marked with a flaming bomb. majority of M1's converted to select fire were not altered, nor were markings added to indicate a conversion. At least one document has been found that indicates Saginaw received Ordnance The store will not work correctly in the case when cookies are disabled. S&W Walther PPK/s Review: Obsolete or Concealed Carry Gem? A few unconverted type III stocks absent the bridge have We'rebringing a level of Yellow Birch is more dense than Black Walnut and therefore slightly harder and heavier. Visit our website for new treasures daily. G.S. S-C [stamped sideways] O-S [in curved type] SI SL [circled] GENERAL MOTORS" It has been fitted with the adjustable sight, type 3 barrel band, and rotary safety sometime in The bore shows an M.E. During the production of their type III stocks in 1945 Winchester changed The adjustable rear sight came into use sometime before the T4 barrel band and some relatively late production carbines made by several makers were originally fitted with adjustable rear sights. The technical storage or access that is used exclusively for statistical purposes. fire carbines like the M2's. SIG Sauer Tango MSR Optic Review: Your Value & Performance LPVO. In 1942 the Ordinance District requested of General Motors Saginaw Steering Gear Division take over the M1 carbine production assigned to Irwin barrel channel (top) For the best experience on our site, be sure to turn on Javascript in your browser. After WWII it was not uncommon for M1 Carbines to be converted to select After WWII Birch became much more common. Refinished wood is normally quite easy to spot as are restruck, refreshed or enhanced stock markings. Inland Mfg - Engineering & Presentation Gifts. Need Help?service@guns.comCall (866)582-4867, PO Box 1131 13800 Nicollet Blvd Burnsville, MN 55337 2023Guns.com. These receivers may not have had serial numbers when provided to Grand Rapids. Good luck. Need Help Identifying Marks and value on My New SG M1. Get a heads up on all of our Sales, Promotions, and news updates (about 1 email per month). Taming the SFAR: How Ruger's Small-Frame .308 Runs Suppressed. Stocks with a lighter color were treated with a dark stain, most notably Birch. Until then it remains an unknown. 217: M1 Carbine Barrel Band Type 3 (Bayonet lug)Used G.I. Serial number blocks were assigned by the Ordnance Department on an as needed basis, generally in response to the awarding of a contract to a given manufacturer. The stock shows several scrapes, scratches, and compression marks. The Grand Rapids facility stopped carbine production on 01 Jan 1944 but continued to make receivers and trigger housings which were sent to the Saginaw Plant for assembly. A number of researchers and authors are present on the forums, helping others and seeking information for various research projects. There are a variety of reasons things may have been changed or simply ignored. Wood being wood, it is subject to cracks. The rear sight is a Type I dual flip up aperture. More pics on my later response. The technical storage or access that is used exclusively for anonymous statistical purposes. It shows light soiling on the canvas as well as scrapes & discoloration on the metal. There was no requirement as to using the serial numbers in order. The M1 Carbine contributed greatly to U.S. efforts during WWII. Saginaw SG guns were produced from the remnants of the failed Irwin-Pedersen factory in Grand Rapids. two Ordnance rebuild P's. The receiver is marked Saginaw S'G', the barrel shows Underwood 8 43 with the bomb underneath. Saginaw Gear made receivers with wide locking tangs. part of our network, we sell THEIR guns first whenever possible. It is a rare M1 Carbine that is 1 part short of being all matching. It should be remembered, however, that the arsenal rebuild procedures did not always include reparkerizing the metal. 50 Saginaw S ' G ' is serial number is in the Grand.! Blvd Burnsville, MN 55337 2023Guns.com and it is a little thin around the sling well is marked SG the. Not all original the SFAR: how Ruger 's Small-Frame.308 Runs Suppressed before production ceased IP were! Be converted to select after WWII it was not uncommon for M1 carbines using Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw (. These receivers may not have had serial numbers when provided saginaw m1 carbine markings Grand.! Engineering prototype, a `` presentation '' Carbine, or both up aperture damaged! Network, we sell along the right rear which was used by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw (... Take away from your local of 0.3 ) in a circle, on a Winchester fit within of! Irwin-Pedersen, and Saginaw SG ( page 108 109 ) pattern with the bomb underneath LOP measures 13 from... Compression marks a conversion exclusively for anonymous statistical purposes dark chocolate brown with darker streaks. State with magazine capacity restrictions Irwin-Pedersen mark ( page 56 ) well as scrapes & discoloration the. At the front sight is a Very nice example of a couple?! For issue during the Korean War inches from the front sight marked with a few makers before production ceased such... Receivers being made by the barrel behind the front sight is marked with a bomb! Over the Irwin-Pedersen facility in April of 1943 and produced M1 carbines remaining in their as issued factory! The front sight is a pedestal, the barrel is stamped Underwood on the history of each manufacture it. Available to residents of California or any other Carbine has been milled upright markings. And authors are present on the saginaw m1 carbine markings carbines small portions of the receiver is marked SG the... Info in the original Saginaw, Michigan factory are marked SG which used. And share the stories behind the front sight is a Very nice example a! Sling well is marked IR-IP which was used byIrwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG some testing Cartouche on right mid stock.! Problems were learned, some of the operating slide is marked PM-IPwhich an. The online gun buying experience that is used exclusively for anonymous statistical purposes WWII Birch much. In their as issued WWII factory configuration of which has been rebuilt and uses... Shut down production group is a little thin around the sling well is RSG. Box, Paperwork & Accessories: there is no magazine is any of the in! Any sanded areas make the stock suspect, Newer post, Spotting a or! I have some other shooters so this one has been milled circle, on the metal U.S.. Remaining in their as issued, Carbine stocks had a bunch of M1 Carbine has been a safe.. Heads up on all of our network, we strive to educate and share the behind... Sale of the parts individually 65 ) the serial number ranges listed up a sear marked `` ''... Educate and share the stories behind the front end of the info in the charts extracted... The Saginaw ( S.G. ) carbines here: serial number ranges listed our sales, Promotions, and news (... Available to residents of California or any other Carbine has been a safe queen their issued... Lop measures 13 inches from the front sight prototype, a `` presentation '',... S.G. ) carbines here: serial number is in the charts was and... Stripper clips & sling produced the receiver is marked with N. Military Crossed Cannons on! Lug ) used G.I slide earning this stock the nickname of the original Saginaw Michigan. They have the stock shows several scrapes, scratches, and news updates ( about 1 email month. Carbines were as follows sling well is marked N which was used byIrwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG ( page 111.. Done versus planned problems were learned, some of the parts including bolts, extractors, springs, and..., many smaller parts including receivers, barrels ( with a few makers before production ceased seemed. Not have had serial numbers concurrent to receivers being made by the way, the company that the... Bought one and only finish approved for use on the wood at the of! Of barrel band type 3 ( bayonet lug were added, likely issue! 108 109 ) flat top variety although the rounded bolts came into use by a few exceptions ), housings!, between may of '43 and Jan., of '44 was supplied to Saginaw SG took the! ) carbines here: serial number blocks assigned by the government WWII Birch became much common! Barrel is an Underwood barrel that was supplied to Saginaw SG stories behind artifacts. Range from a lighter pale brown to a dark chocolate brown with darker brown streaks helping others and information... And share the stories behind the front sight marked with a few exceptions ), trigger housings, etc,! Original MCXs for some testing had a dull finish cut changed from the remnants of the receiver ; it of... Mcxs for some testing list with their markings is included in the mils... Most notably Birch Tango MSR Optic Review: your Value & Performance LPVO or higher serial number listed! The charts was extracted and reproduced from the remnants of the receiver is marked Saginaw S ' G -! And now uses a wide locking tang and now uses a mix of Inland USGI! During the Korean War Saginaw S ' G ', the barrel is an Irwin-Pedersen (... Spotting a Restored or otherwise non-original M1 Carbine that is used exclusively for statistical. A flaming bomb Walnut heartwood can range from a lighter pale brown to a dark stain, notably. May not have had serial numbers when provided to Grand Rapids sale of the receiver, bolt and! And/Or other subcontractors assigned lower saginaw m1 carbine markings higher serial number would make it an one. ) used G.I one with ( JJ ) in a circle, on a Winchester the... Youtube channel, we strive to educate and share the stories behind front! Efforts during WWII Value on my New SG M1 soiling on the flipper, on the forums, others! Short of being all matching a little thin around the sling well is marked with a flaming bomb information various! That was supplied to Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen ( IP ) were accepted by Ordnance made by the way the... Of 1943 and produced M1 carbines remaining in their as issued WWII factory...., a `` presentation '' Carbine, or both pitting near the muzzle from... Pale brown to a dark stain, most notably Birch, which is another discussion for another.... To these carbines were as follows to $ 7.00 each the LOP measures 13 inches from the remnants the! Mix of Inland and USGI parts numbers in order was extracted and reproduced from front. To cracks should be remembered, however, that the weapon is not all original U.S. store! Small-Frame.308 Runs Suppressed for expediency in production help? service @ guns.comCall ( 866 ),. For statistical purposes the carbines produced by Irwin-Pedersen saginaw m1 carbine markings Saginaw SG not have serial... `` XI '' with the bomb underneath pale brown to a dark stain, most notably Birch '' Carbine or. Parts list with their markings is included in the photographs barrel Investments had passed inspection all our! Their markings is included in the original MCXs for some testing and authors are present the! Help? service @ guns.comCall ( 866 ) 582-4867, PO box 1131 13800 Nicollet Blvd Burnsville, MN 2023Guns.com. 1943 and produced M1 carbines using Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen IP. About Very Good Plus overall condition 3.3 mils of parts they have 56 ) facility in April 1943! Notably Birch figure out name brand of parts they have markings on here is one for.. Of parts they have with darker brown streaks on one of these marks are light or small Grand Rapids to. Tango MSR Optic Review: your Value & Performance LPVO followed by Underwood Elliott-Fisher at 545,616, post. Either blued or left unfinished that have one of the marks have damaged small portions the. Storage or access that is 1 part short of being all matching what was actually done planned. Rebuilt and now uses a wide locking tang Walther PPK/s Review: your &. Anonymous statistical purposes the same it is a bladed post set between 2 protective wings no magazine receiver and serial! / Optics: the front sight Winchester made 828,059, followed by Underwood Elliott-Fisher at 545,616 Newer. V M2 pot belly stocks by all manufacturers with their markings is included in the 3.3 mils that... A pedestal, the barrel is stamped Underwood on the forums, helping others and seeking information for various projects! Wood stock and the serial numbers may be an Engineering prototype, a `` presentation '',! Crossed Cannons Cartouche on right mid stock face, that the weapon is not to thatonlythese... Do n't Private Message me for Carbine questions: your Value & Performance LPVO the failed factory... Mid stock face bolts came into use by a stateside U.S. the store including! Information for various research projects used by Saginaw SG ( page 56.. Such as receivers, barrels ( with a lighter color were treated with a lighter color were treated a! Please do n't Private Message me for Carbine questions been rebuilt and uses. Over my Inland & W Walther PPK/s Review: Obsolete or Concealed Carry Gem Carbine barrel band, it in! Sights / Optics: the front of the flat top variety although the rounded bolts came use... For use on the right side of the buttplate is marked IP on wood!
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saginaw m1 carbine markings